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  #11  
Old 07-03-2007, 10:06 PM
Working Girl
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I thought the movie was great. I'm a US citizen living in the US. Several years ago, while traveling in the UK, I developed a really bad case of N/V/D. I got really dehydrated. I went to a hospital. I waited for 20 minutes before I was seen by a doctor. I was admitted, given IV fluids and monitored overnight. The fluids were all I needed to put me on the right track. Last month I fell in the dark parking lot of the hospital in which I work as I was leaving after a call shift. I waited in the emergency room for 3+ hours and was treated incredibly rudely until I mentioned that I was an employee. (I have to wear hospital laundered scrubs, so I was already in street clothes when I fell)

By the time I can go back to work, I will have used all the vacation time I've been saving (for a now imaginary trip to India). I wish I was French.
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  #12  
Old 07-04-2007, 07:31 PM
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Haven't seen it yet. Aside from the subject matter, I heard it is very funny. Michael Moore is not my cup of tea, but in this case I think I can watch the movie with an open mind.

Have to wait until my next day off!
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  #13  
Old 07-05-2007, 02:38 PM
kate loving shenk
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Default Sicko Is Socko!!

Hello all--

Sicko is a great film. Probably will win an academy award.

Having said that, i was saddened by the movie, more notably by the feeling that health care reform is moving so slowing in this country, it may as well not be moving at all.

When health care workers were asked about whether anyone in france, canada or the uk would change their system for ours, they just laughed.

And the health care workers in these countries said they could never work for a system such as ours where profit is a higher priority than human life.

But we can get involved. The California Nurses Association is a good place to start. They have a bill called: Guaranteed Health Care for all. Just google it.

Where I practice in Pennsylvania, we have a single payer plan about to be introduced to the house.

Sicko has put all of this on the radar screen.

What a beautiful thing!!

Kate Loving Shenk
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http://nursehealers.typepad.com

P.S. Thanks for this forum!!
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  #14  
Old 07-05-2007, 05:01 PM
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Kim, I can't wait to read your post about Sicko after your next day off.
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  #15  
Old 07-06-2007, 10:48 AM
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You can read mine now! It's attached to an article I wrote for NursingLink, but if you click the link in the first sentence, you can read just my review.
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  #16  
Old 07-07-2007, 08:03 PM
kate loving shenk
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Default sicko--again!!

hello all--

i watched sicko with a retired physician yesterday--he loved it so much that he didn't want it to end, and kept sitting there almost in a state of shock, after the movie ended!!

this time around, i saw the utter brilliance of this film. the editing was flawless, the movie was funnier than i remembered (i needed a straight jacket the first time i saw it and sought counseling to get myself back together!!!)

my physician friend and i went out to eat, and discussed it for hours.

wow!!

all i know is: the insurance industry has to go. it is too corrupt to fix in any way.

i knew this going into the movie--and moore's point about americans needing to think in terms of "WE" instead of "ME" is well taken.

i am a moore fan and have been for years. i met him at the Democratic National Convention in 1992 (I was on the Crudentials Committee) in NYC and we all had a great time.

i hung out with him and loved his energy. just a very fun loving and happy guy--not the angry person some people make him out to be.

well 1992 was a long time ago--maybe he's good and angry now!!! LOLOL!!

i know something has to be done

we have a single payer bill now here in pennsylvania that we are gathering petition signatures for, now.

for those of you in PA, here's the link to get the petition.

http://www.healthcare4allpa.org/filmkit.htm


enough from me--hope all is well --
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  #17  
Old 07-11-2007, 01:47 PM
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I've got to wait until it gets shown in Scotland.
I certainly wouldn't want to swap the NHS with all its faults, and by golly it has them, whatever Michael Moore may have glossed over, for the American system.
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  #18  
Old 07-17-2007, 05:58 AM
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Ok. So I saw Sicko tonight. I went in to it with mixed feelings, primarily in regards to putting money into Michael Moore's pocket. I knew that it would be one-sided and engage in a little overkill here and there. (And I hope that someday, he will know that a "documentary" should portray both sides of the story.)That having been said, I knew I would be presented with information that made me think. That is his goal: to make us think. Whether we act upon it or not, that's our problem.

(And now for the disclaimer: These are soley random thoughts. I truly believe bits of it, and others I'm just thinking out loud.)

The stories of the people are incredibly sad. I and my family have been fortunate enough to not have problems w/ insurance. I was sitting there thinking, "This shouldn't ever be a problem for me, because I work at a hospital." And then the lady from a hospital, located not too far from the one I work at (too close for comfort), whose husband died because he was denied care. That stopped that thought in it's tracks. I guess it can apply to me! (Holy Beans!)

I do agree that everyone deserves to have QUALITY health care, and that it must come at a cost. However, America is a free market economy. That's the premise our country was founded on. We're here to make money and not be directed, completely, by the government. It's very difficult for me to decide where I stand on the issue because of this. I think everyone should have a minimum standard of care to be received, but anything above and beyond, I'm just not sure. (Oh, of course I want everyone to get every treatment possible if it's going to fix them! Duh!) So do we all pitch in a bit, so everyone can have the same basic care? Maybe the same basic PREVENTIVE CARE? Wouldn't that solve a lot of things? Prevent a lot of unnecessary hospitalizations, surgeries, deaths?

(As my boyfried said, Michael Moore depends on capitalism to get the hype and the income from this movie...he probably wouldn't have produced it or any of his other movies if he didn't stand to gain something from it. Is it so bad for other American institutions to want to have some gains? Not that I'm supporting a million dollar income at the expense of someone's life...)

Geena: I totally had the exact same question. How far is too far on someone's life in a socialist, national health care plan? Does that mean we resuscitate them over and over and over, knowing full well that their quality of life is forever compromised? Does that mean we go ahead and do a CABG on a 90 year old man and take him back to surgery three times, but withdraw treatment on a 40 year old woman after one round of chemo? Is that why there are so many palliative care initiatives in foreign countries, because they're killing their people off because they can't afford them? I'm curious to know how many pt's like Terri Schiavo they have in their long term care facilities... Do they dump them ASAP or do they prolong the inevitable?

The things that totally irritated me throughout the movie:
1. If he really felt that national health care is that important, wouldn't he move to a country where it is the standard?

2. Everyone who bought tickets to the show will have just paid his medical bill for his stents and maybe a CABG that he's bound to have in the future. (Again, preventive health care!)

3. Um, was it just me or is it kind of ridiculous to ask an ENGINEER if he's living comfortably in any economy? Seriously, if you're checking up on the "cost" of socialized medicine, don't you think you should ask maybe a grocery store worker or someone who having a lot less income in addition to high taxes might be more affected?

4. Don't make me feel guilty for wanting what's best for me and no one else. (Admit it, you all felt this! We're Americans! Our society is built on dollar signs and the "me" attitude.) I don't necessarily agree...it was more a gut reaction. I think a little attitude change would be great. Let's look at it as "philanthropy."

5. His dirty clothes bit was just dumb, as was his lame-assed attempt at Guantanamo Bay. I know it was to drive home a point, but sometimes one just needs to grow up.

I don't know. I'm still ruminating on it...well, that actually may just be the tasty veggie creole and bread pudding I had before we went...haha. I may be back to comment. These are my thoughts for now though.


Ah, one more thing. What has this movie prompted you to do? After all, I said it's up to us to actually do something in regards to those things that make us think and that we feel passionate about.

I know the town I live in has two low cost/free health clinics and a team in the county health department that does immunizations and health education. My new goal is to become involved in them. If we can't change the system from the top, we can at least make a difference at our level. Perhaps it will trickle up, haha.
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  #19  
Old 07-17-2007, 03:18 PM
Marachne
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First caveat: I have not yet seen Sicko.

Second caveat: Like MJ I'm a card-carrying leftie.

Third caveat: I like a lot of what Michael Moore does. Yes, he engages in hyperbole and overkill, and he can be a little sloppy with his facts, but the reality is that he also lives in America where anything less than overkill gets ignored. I do think he's gotten a little bit over in love with himself and puts too much of himself in his movies, but that doesn't stop him from presenting really important information and ideas.

That said, I want to respond to some of what Elocin22 said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elocin22 View Post
I hope that someday, he will know that a "documentary" should portray both sides of the story.
Nope, anyone who says that their treatment of a subject is "equal fair and balanced" is about as honest as...Fox news. There is nothing that says a documentary has to present "both sides." For one thing, most issues have more than two sides. For another, everything we produce has a point of view. For a third, these movies fall into the category of "Political Documentaries." There's even a new book about it: http://www.amazon.com/Shooting-Truth.../dp/0275987604

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elocin22 View Post
I do agree that everyone deserves to have QUALITY health care, and that it must come at a cost. However, America is a free market economy. That's the premise our country was founded on. We're here to make money and not be directed, completely, by the government.
Again, I think that's an overstatement. There have been tensions from the beginning about the role of government (the federalists vs. the state's rights folks among the founding fathers). And that argument was also used to support slavery. We, as a nation can, and in some cases must change if we are going to survive. Having 5% of the country contoling 95% of the wealth is not something I want to perpetuate.

As for everyone getting preventive care, did you know that Bush recently said "everyone has access to care, they have the emergency room." Great, caring attitude. And I won't talk about my insurance company which, for the plan I'm on pays for ONE HOUR of diabetic education in one's entire life! They'll (theoretically) cover the amputations, the dialysis, the medications for diabetic neurapathy, but not simple education.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elocin22 View Post
(As my boyfried said, Michael Moore depends on capitalism to get the hype and the income from this movie...he probably wouldn't have produced it or any of his other movies if he didn't stand to gain something from it.
I don't know how much MM is into money and fame these days, I think it has gone to his head. But his first movie "Roger and Me" about the loss of auto manufacturing jobs in his hometown Flint, Michigan was made from a place of outrage towards the filthy rich who don't give a hoot about how many people's lives they destroy. He's been making documentaries for a long time (Roger and Me was made in 1989) and he's only really started to make it in a mainstream way since "Bowling for Columbine" in 2002. I think outrage, and being outragous really is his mode of operation. He really does fight for things that affect the everyday person with little or no political, social, or economic power.

I think the questions about what is broken in our system, in terms of fruitless procedures is a good one. I also know that the UK, Australia and Sweden, all countries with socialized medicine, do some of the best work regarding palliative and hospice care and research, as well as looking at issues of aging and long-term care. I don't think people get "dumped" (although I'm not saying their systems are perfect), but they maybe get more appropriate care rather than "anything money can buy" (if you have the money).

Just another thought--the VA is the largest healthcare system in the US--and it is in essence socialized medicine. I also just read that that number we always hear as a comparison: wait time for hip fractures? Guess who pays for the majority of hip replacements in the US? Medicare--i.e. socialized medicine.

The fact that we are at the bottom of ranking for health care in developed countries says a lot to me too.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Elocin22 View Post
1. If he really felt that national health care is that important, wouldn't he move to a country where it is the standard?
Uh, because he loves his country and wants to make it a better place? I'm sorry but I've been hearing that argument since the Viet Nam era, and it makes no more sense now then it did then. Why should I leave instead of fighting for change that I think will improve the home I love?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elocin22 View Post
2. Everyone who bought tickets to the show will have just paid his medical bill for his stents and maybe a CABG that he's bound to have in the future. (Again, preventive health care!)
Some might call that statement sizest or fat phobic. It is possible to be big and healthy, just as it is possible to be a top athlete and have a heart attack. That seems to me like a kind of low blow. But YMMV

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elocin22 View Post
3. Um, was it just me or is it kind of ridiculous to ask an ENGINEER if he's living comfortably in any economy? Seriously, if you're checking up on the "cost" of socialized medicine, don't you think you should ask maybe a grocery store worker or someone who having a lot less income in addition to high taxes might be more affected?
Ah, but that's the thing, the engineer IS paying more taxes, unlike in the US where the people who can afford it the least pay (proportionately) a lot more in taxes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elocin22 View Post
I don't know. I'm still ruminating on it...well, that actually may just be the tasty veggie creole and bread pudding I had before we went...haha. I may be back to comment. These are my thoughts for now though.
mmmm yum. Want to share? I want to say that I appreciate your sharing your thoughts, and I hope that my sharing my responses will be taken in the spirit it is given--that of good, public, debate, one of the things that I think our country is founded on.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Elocin22 View Post
Ah, one more thing. What has this movie prompted you to do? After all, I said it's up to us to actually do something in regards to those things that make us think and that we feel passionate about.
you have a really good point there. What I'm doing is trying to help out family caregivers through my research, as well as vulnerable older adults in general. As we discharge people "sicker and quicker" we ask more and more of family members in terms of care--from complex dressing changes to pain management...not to mention just having to negotiate our health system. (Another aside--in the UK, and I believe some of the other socialized medicine countries they also pay family caregivers so that they don't wind up loosing jobs, homes, etc when a family member becomes ill or has a chronic illness/disability). I'm also working with the local GLBT older adult organization around healthcare issues.

That said, I probably don't do enough.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elocin22 View Post
I know the town I live in has two low cost/free health clinics and a team in the county health department that does immunizations and health education. My new goal is to become involved in them. If we can't change the system from the top, we can at least make a difference at our level. Perhaps it will trickle up, haha.
Good on you. I think that is part of the solution -- to not feel helpless and w/o power but to act and empower ourselves. I think one can both act locally and respond politically on the larger stage. I think the office of the National Nurse is a step towards the kind of advocacy work that is the heart of what nursing is about.

Wow, it's amazing what lengths I will go to to avoid studying for my comprehensive exams!
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  #20  
Old 07-23-2007, 02:49 PM
kate loving shenk
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Default Single-Payer Health Care In America

Hello all,

Here is my latest article on single-payer health care for all Americans.

In-Joy!!
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